Sure, I knew the old frames built with the top Reynolds, Columbus and Tange tube sets were a bit lighter, and were highly coveted by experienced riders. Weight matters to a certain degree, but the frame alone is far less than half of the total weight of a complete bike. And as far as being highly coveted, I figured those poor saps doing the coveting were just victims of marketing and hype.
I've slowly been outgrowing that belief over the past few years, but I recently had a massive growth spurt when I had the opportunity to compare two bikes that were very similar in every way except for the tubing they were built with. Remember that racy Trek 560 that I bought a couple of years ago? I loved riding that bike, but finally came to the conclusion that it was a size too small for me. So, I put all of the original parts back on it and put it up for sale on Craigslist.
The plan was to replace it with another Trek 560 of the right size once I sold it. Serendipitously something even better came up on Craigslist almost immediately after I sold the 560.
Say hello to my "new" 1985 Trek 760.
When I bought the Trek 760 its original Campy Victory parts were long gone. The guy I got it from had bought it as a bare frame and built it up with a mostly meh assortment of early 90s Japanese components. I decided to strip it bare and rebuild it with all of the parts that had been on the Trek 560. This gave me a rare opportunity to compare two frames with the exact same components so I could get a good feel for the differences between the frames.
So, with the 760 rebuilt the differences between the two bikes came down to this:
- The 760 is a size bigger than the 560 (the 760 is a size 56cm, and the 560 is a size 21" or 53.34cm)
- There are slight differences in geometry between the two models.
- The 760 is built with Reynolds 531C tubing while the 560 is Reynolds 501.
The size and geometry differences look like this (the 560's numbers are in the red box in the top section and the 760's are in the lower red box):
The head tube angle is a fair amount steeper on the 760, but other than that differences are either attributable to the different sizes (i.e. the 760 has a longer top tube and seat tube), or they are extremely small and probably not significant.
So what about the difference in tubing? How is Reynolds 531C different than Reynolds 501? According to the 1985 Trek brochure, there are differences in tube wall thickness.
The top tube's walls are thinner, the down tube's are a little thicker and the seat tube's are thinner in 531C as compared to 501 tube set. There are also differences in how the tubes are manufactured and the composition of the steel, but those differences supposedly have little impact on the strength or ride quality of the finished bike. There's some weight difference in the tube sets, but the difference is negligible when it comes to a fully built bike. Both bikes weigh about 22 lbs ready to ride with peddles and everything.
On paper this all looks pretty trivial to my inexperienced eye. I expected these two bikes to ride very similarly. I doubted that I would even be able to tell them apart in a blindfold test. Not that I would ever try riding blindfolded!
So, the next Saturday morning after building up the 760, I went for a good long ride...
By the way, I had ridden the 560 just a week before so its ride quality and handling characteristics were still pretty fresh in my mind. I rode 70 or so miles on some of my favorite roads that day with lots of ups, downs, twists, turns, smooth pavement, rough pavement and even a bit of gravel.
The difference between the 760 and my beloved old 560 was mind-blowing!
As I've said before, I loved the ride of that 560. Everything about it was quick and precise. When you jumped on it, it took off. The downside was that you could feel every pebble and crack in the pavement, and the handling required constant attention.
On the 760 I instantly noticed a smoother and more stable ride. There was little of the jarring and buzzing that I had come to associate with the 560. The ride quality was more like my Cadillac-like Trek 614 than it was like the 560. And the handling of the 760 had all of the quickness and precision of the 560, but with less effort and attention required. I never felt like I was having to force it into a tight turn. The handling was more intuitive and invisible than on any other bike I had ever ridden.
Talking about ride quality and handling characteristics of bikes is a little like wine reviews. It can be a lot of meaningless hyperbole that is really just trying to say either "I like this" or "I don't like this." So rather than try to use up a bunch more words explaining my perceptions, I'll just say this: I found my new Trek 760 to feel very different than my old 560, and I really liked the difference.
Since that first Saturday ride, I've ridden the new 760 a few hundred more miles. I'm still a bit blown away every time I get on it. It's by far the best riding bike I've ever owned. It has very clearly taught me that one lugged steel frame is not like another, even if they may look very similar on paper.
What accounts for the differences? I'm still not sure. It could be attributed to the different tube sets, but I suspect it's more complicated than that. That's one of the things I love about bikes. They are amazingly complex for such simple machines.
"Just like women" says a friend of mine.
So, Steve, can this be summarized as: "all else equal, better quality steel makes for a better ride?"
ReplyDeleteOn the surface it would seem so, but I think it may be a little more complicated than that. Clearly the tube diameter and wall thickness have a big effect. But the differences between Reynolds 501 and 531 are fairly subtle. Can those subtle differences completely account for such a big difference in the ride quality? Not knowing a lot about frame building I'm not sure what other tricks a builder can use to tweak ride quality.
ReplyDeleteI think the 1.5 degrees of head tube angle and the shorter wheel base make the biggest difference.
ReplyDeleteR2
I have also had a similar experience to you, as in, riding an older incorrectly sized smaller steel frame , and then upgrading to a larger steel frame with a better tubeset. You Said The downside of the 560 was that you could feel every pebble and crack in the pavement, and the handling required constant attention. I had the same problem with my trek 560, it was two sizes too small, it was fast and responsive,climbed very well, and i was able to pedal with no hands, but i had to be really careful about any bumps, because the frame was too small, the slightest shift in body weight caused the bike to shift left or right,
ReplyDeleteBut once i got the frame in the correct size, with a longer quill stem, man it was like a dream, i could ride no hands all day without paying attention, often looking at women and turning my head back while pedaling effortlessy, Those Old Steel bikes had different geometries based on the size, and the correct fitting steel frame is a HUGE DIFFERENCE, Now alot of mass produced steel bikes dont have the same level of detail when it comes to correct sized geometry, Enjoy your perfect ride, and make sure you always ride the correct sized steel bike!
If you have been following Jan Heine, et al, regarding a bicycle's "trail", you will know that a steeper head tube angle, as on the 760, reduces trail. Heine and company are big fans of "low trail" handling. Your experience may have a lot to do with the trail being lower on the 760 than on the 560. On the other hand, I think the lighter tube set may account for the more comfortable ride. I happen to have a mid-80s Mercian Professional built with 531c. And, coincidentally, like your old 560, it is a little small for me at 52, c to c, my other bikes are 55. But, oh my, does that Mercian ever have a sweet ride. Those thin, high quality tubes make for a very fine riding cycle. (It is even superior to the two old steel Colnagos I have, one built with Columbus SL and the other with SLX.)
ReplyDeleteExcuse my ignorance in the comment above; I am new to your blog and had not yet read your discussion of high/low trail in connection with your preference for the early 80s Treks. I understand they are well known for this unusual feature, making them a favourite of serious randonneurs like yourself.
DeleteI think your observations are right on the money. Both the lower trail of the 760 and the lighter tubing come in to play. Like I said above, bikes are simple machines yet there are a lot of variables that contribute to the overall feel.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI too have an 85 760. My dad gave it to me after he did a minor upgrade to a Waterford a few years back. I road it for a while but was never super enthusiastic about it. Even with the newer Record crank and front D that I got when pops switched to a compact. Since I lean towards the MTB side of cycling, I could never get comfortable using downtube shifting, even though it was what I had used as a kid. A little while back a co worker offered to sell me a pile of used road components. Campy wheels, levers/shifters and rear derailleur and an AWESOME pair of Mavic brakes. All for $500. After getting the rear drops re-spaced and building it up I ended up with a bike I absolutely LOVE to ride. It gets quite a bit of attention as well. These ar e great bikes
ReplyDeleteHere's a pic. It is a 60 or 62 (Dad is 6'2", I am 6'4")
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o142/kingbozo/Trek/IMG_6935.jpg
Beautiful bike you have there!
DeleteThanks! I lucked out that the color of the wheelset went so well with the frame. Parts is parts, but when they look good it is a bonus for sure.
DeleteSteve
ReplyDeleteSaw your BF post about the Brooks C-17 and found your website from the review. Thanks for the C-17 info, been considering one when my 2 B-17's reach the tension screw limit.
On your impresion of Trek 760 vs 560, do you thinkl the 760 is "plnning" due to the thinner TT (8/5/8) and thicker DT (10/7/10) vs the 560 with 9/6/9 al around??
Certainity the 560 with 9/6/9 should give a good ride. The majot difference between the 560 and760 is the TT/DT.
John Hawrylak (John.Hawrylak@verizon.net)
Woodstown NJ
It definitely fits with Bicycle Quarterly's findings that a thinner walled top tube is a key ingredient in what they call planing. Although, the difference I experienced between these two bikes seems too substantial to be able to attribute it all to .1 mm of tube wall (about the thickness of a sheet of standard printer paper). There are some other variables that may all be contributing to the differences in ride quality and handling; frame size, head tube angle, fork and stays to name a few. But it seems likely that the top tube is an important piece of the puzzle.
DeleteI am considering upgrading my 1988 Schwinn Voyaguer (67 mm trail) with a front generator wheel, & Edelux light for brevets. I have the VO Pass Hunter front rack with decailler & plan on usigna VO Campagne bag. You appeared to have gotten good use from the bag.
ReplyDeleteYour Trek 760 & 560 had similair trails (62 to 73mm) based on the catalog sheets you showed.
I would approeciate any feedback from you on front end stability on these frmaes with a front bag. I am not expecting problems sicne the Voyaguer was a toruing frame (same as Panasonioc Pro Tour series) & should handle the front bag & rack ok.
John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ
I've never used either the Trek 560 or 760 with a front bag, however I did used a Surly Cross Check with that same VO Campagne bag for about a year and a half early in my Randonneuring career. The Cross Check has similar high trail numbers to the 560 and 760.
DeleteI have heard others say that carrying a front load on a high trail bike results in unacceptably poor handling. Personally I never found that to be true. The handling becomes a little more sluggish with a front load, but it's something I was easily able to adjust to. I rode many thousands of miles with front loads on that Cross Check and managed to come out of it unscathed.
Yes, low trail makes for a bike that better handles a front load, but in my experience, putting a front load on a high trail bike isn't necessarily a horrible thing.
Steve
DeleteThjanks for the reply on high trial & front load. Exactly what I was looking for. I think I will be OK with the Voyaguer and a front bag.
John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ
Odds are your 560 had less expensive steel for the stays and fork (still good though) while the 760 was Reynolds 531 all over (better).
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